first off, I want to apologize for citing an XY ruling. my understanding of this specific rule was that it had uncontestedly existed for the game’s entire post-WOTC history, and ADV card text aligned with that understanding, so I just opted to link the furthest back relevant ruling I could find for the sake of a quick bug report. I had no idea this case would end up being as intricate as it was
that being said, we seemed to come to the conclusion on discord that it is correct for Sand Damage to place a damage counter on a benched Jynx that has evolved from Smoochum via Baby Evolution, and that it would also be correct for Space Center to shut off this same Jynx’s Poke-Body
to summarize the discord discussion:
• A Basic Pokemon (たねポケモン) is a Pokemon that has “Basic” written as its stage on the left side of the card. Cards like Great Ball, Flygon-ex DF 92, Space Center, and Raticate RG 48 check for this state. It is important to note that “Basic Pokemon” solely refers to the stage written on the Pokemon’s card, and is not to be confused with an Unevolved Pokemon. This stage is not mutually exclusive with the state of being an Evolved Pokemon.
• An Evolution Pokemon (進化カード) is a Pokemon that has “Stage 1” or “Stage 2” written as its stage on the left side of the card. Cards like Kingdra-ex DF 94, Professor Elm’s Training Method, and Dark Dragonair TR 31 check for this state. It is possible to have an Evolution Pokemon in play that is not considered an Evolved Pokemon (in ADV the wording is “treat the new Benched Pokemon as Basic Pokemon”).
• A Baby Pokemon (ベイビィポケモン) is a Pokemon with the Baby Rule that has “Baby” written in as its stage on the left side of the card. It is very important to note that there are no Baby Pokemon in ADV, and babies printed in ADV like Smoochum DF 64 and Azurill SS 31 are considered normal Basic Pokemon. However, ADV cards like Lanette’s Net Search, Salamence-ex DX 103, and Dodrio RG 21 check for this state. Again, Baby Pokemon were not printed in any ADV set.
• An Evolved Pokemon (進化ポケモン) is a Pokemon that has been manually placed on top of another Pokemon to evolve it. Cards like Scramble Energy, Solid Rage, Latias HP 11, and Boost Energy check for this state, so it is possible for Scramble Energy to be attached to an evolved Basic Jynx.
• An Unevolved Pokemon (進化していないポケモン) is a Pokemon in play that does not have a Pokemon underneath it that it evolved from. This state is only called for in ADV by Scramble Energy and Boost Energy for sake of devolution interactions with cards like Ancient Technical Machine [Rock] or Espeon-ex UF 102. Future cards like Snowpoint Temple, Mewtwo LV.X, and Regice LA 36 check for this state.
with all of this in mind, we knew definitively these categories were true and correct from as far back as DP onwards, and the point of contention here was whether or not these categories were invariably applicable for ADV. there are only a couple Japanese rulings we have that support this case:
(courtesy of JP. Source: |PJ[hQ[`cuæQeg£pbNu»Ì«¹«v@p`)
ピチュー ポケパワー［ベイビィしんか］
Q ピチューのポケパワー［ベイビィしんか］を使って進化したピカチュウは、「進化ポケモン」としてあつかうのですか。
A はい、進化ポケモンとしてあつかいます。
DeepL:
Pichu POKEPOWER [Baby Shinka]
Q: Is a Pikachu that evolved using Pichu’s POKEPOWER [Baby Shinka] treated as an “Evolved Pokémon”?
A: Yes, it is treated as an Evolved Pokémon.
this confirms the existence of the Evolved state as we understand it. however, this doesn’t contradict anything we know and doesn’t confirm whether or not the Pikachu in question is considered a Basic Pokemon or an Evolution Pokemon, just that it is an Evolved Pokemon, (DP onwards we know that it would be considered both Evolved and Basic.) and whether or not the Basic stage is mutually exclusive with the Evolved state. we need to look a little further for that:
(courtesy of flagrama. Source: ベイビィしんか - ポケモンWiki)
異なり、ベイビィ進化後のポケモンはカードに書かれているとおり「たねポケモ ン」として扱われる。ただし、「進化していないポケモン」ではなく「進化ポケモン」である。
DeepL:
Unlike the other Pokémon, a Baby Evolved Pokémon is treated as a “Seed Pokémon,” as written on the card. However, it is an “Evolved Pokémon,” not an “Unevolved Pokémon”.
this outright confirms our argument is correct… however, although ポケモンWiki provides accurate information, it is not technically delivered from an official source. it is probably the best contradiction to how TCGONE rules it as we have access to.
as it turns out, there was another bug report and a consecutive discussion about this specific topic posted by TyraniBoah on the TCGONE forums in march and april of 2021.
Link to bug report: Space Center vs Evolved Pokemon - #2 by nhnsn
Link to discussion: Space Center & the Definition of Basic - #6 by NankerPhelge
TyraniBoah makes very good points in these threads, and his logic is consistent with what we understand and can reasonably infer from both the ADV text and the limited amount of ADV rulings and official rulings from DP onwards that confirm our arguments. I recommend you read them both
I particularly want to emphasize these few points:
“But nowhere on their cards does it if they are Stage 1’s, or Stage 2’s. Nowhere in the game does ‘being evolved’ override a card’s text, which says if they are Basic, Stage 1, or Stage 2.”
“Being an ‘Evolution Card’ does not automatically make a Pokemon ‘non-Basic’ as seen by Archie, Strange Cave, etc, which by card effect turn Evolution Cards into Basics. Their text has been overridden explicitly, by card effect. The absence of a card underneath them is not what makes them Basic, but the effect stating that they are.”
“A Pokemon is only a Basic, Stage 1, or Stage 2 if it says so on the card, or by card effect. This is seen in multiple Compendium rulings on Team Assembly, Influence and Strange Cave. Rare Candy also demonstrates this by affirming that Stage 2’s placed on top of Basics are still Stage 2’s. Just because they have a Basic underneath them doesn’t make them Stage 1’s. Just because an ‘Evolved Basic’ like Jynx has Smoochum underneath doesn’t mean its ‘Basic’ card text has been overwritten. It’s not a Stage 1, not a Stage 2, not some other category. It’s still a Basic Pokemon.”
“Space Center refers to Basic Pokemon, not ‘non-evolved’ Pokemon, which means it applies to Pokemon that either have ‘Basic’ in their text, or have been modified into a Basic by card effect (like Archie). Basics can be ‘Evolved’, but still be ‘Basic’ if nothing has modified their card text. Wobbuffet, Electabuzz, Clefairy and Magmar with their respective Baby’s underneath them, are still Basic Pokemon and subject to any card effects that refer to ‘Basic’ Pokemon.”
“The current interpretation of Baby Evolutions, that they are immune to references to ‘Basic’ Pokemon, is impulsive and contradictory. It is more accurate if they receive all the benefits of being ‘Evolved’ (Scramble, Boost, etc.) while retaining all the drawbacks of being ‘Basic’, not ‘Non-Evolved’ (Aggron ex Intimidating Armor, Shining Horn, Space Center, etc.).”
“If that is the case, though, that they are able to evade references to ‘Basic’, then the texts of numerous cards have to be modified to contain a new term never seen in any card prior: “Non-Evolved Basic Pokemon.” At the same time, it also means Baby Evolutions create a fourth type of Pokemon that also isn’t found anywhere: Evolved Non-Basic, Non-Stage 1, Non-Stage 2 Pokemon.”
Jason has a counterpoint here:
“Your logic makes perfect sense. Unfortunately, Pokémon cards sometimes don’t. Often in this game we have to determine what the intention of a card is rather than go by the literal text. In this instance, I’m assuming we’ve always had it right that Space Center should not disable Poké-Bodies of an evolved Wobbuffet, Jynx, etc.”
however, I disagree with this line of thinking.
TyraniBoah mentions:
“I think it is incredible to assume that Baby Evolutions are creating a fourth category of Pokemon that is otherwise not referenced anywhere in the game (Evolved Non-Basic, Non-Stage 1, Non-Stage 2 Pokemon).”
I agree with this. in this case, your argument needs to be backed by a ruling that supports your claim, because this outright contradicts the text of the cards and has crazy implications as far as creating a new special fourth category of Pokemon that is neither a Basic, a Stage 1, or a Stage 2.
theres one last snag, and it’s something Jason brings up regarding how Space Center was played in 2006:
“If it worked as you describe, Space Center would also shut off an evolved Wobbuffet. Space Center would have seen way more play in 2006.”
“Even though TPCi still got a few rulings wrong around this time, Wobbuffet and Jynx were both popular enough cards where I feel like we’d have heard from Japan if we had been doing it wrong.”
the simplest explanation I have for this is that it was simply too niche of a system that mattered in far too few interactions and not well understood enough for people to have ever picked up on. we know the distinction exists now and understand it exists because of clarification that happened in the years following this, likely due to the relevancy of this system in interactions with LV.X Pokemon, and that is simply 18~ years of additional context that a player from 2006 couldn’t possibly realize. I disagree with having the way it was played in 2006 be the official way that it is implemented on TCGONE, as I believe that preserving the aspects of historical accuracy of formats shouldn’t get in the way of using what we can reasonably infer to be correct rulings.
in any case, I believe that the burden of proof here lies with the side that believes that a Jynx evolved from Smoochum via Baby Evolution should not take Sand Damage or should not be affected by Space Center; until there is concrete proof that they shouldn’t, according to all arguments, rulings provided, and how this documented system has worked for the history of the game, it makes sense that on TCGONE it should be implemented so that they take Sand Damage and be affected by Space Center.