[BR] Flygon ex (DF 92). Jynx (DF 17). flygon-ex's sand damage should place a damage

[tfw]

Flygon ex (DF 92). Jynx (DF 17). flygon-ex's sand damage should place a damage counter on a jynx that was evolved from a smoochum with the effect of baby evolution, when evolved like this jynx is considered an "evolved pokemon" but not an "evolution pokemon", and retains its stage (basic)

similar rulings:

Baby Evolution vs. Pyroar

Pokémon Rulings Compendium

Pokémon Rulings Compendium

------------------Begin Game Log------------------
The game is about to start
Type: QuickPlay
Format: EX Block
Battle begins between UCS and froggiep0p!
tfw is now a spectator of the game
Coin flip [Opening Flip]: HEADS
UCS will start
Game setup complete
Between turns
Turn 1 begins
Between turns
Turn 2 begins
froggiep0p drew 1 card
froggiep0p played Holon Transceiver.
froggiep0p has shuffled deck.
Put [Holon Mentor (DS 93)] to Hand
froggiep0p has shuffled deck.
[UCS]: this will go better i promise
froggiep0p played Holon Mentor.
Steven’s Advice (PK 83) was discarded
froggiep0p has shuffled deck.
Put [Shuppet (CG 40), Smoochum (DF 64), Jynx (DF 17)] to Hand
froggiep0p has shuffled deck.
Put [Holon Mentor (DS 93)] to Supporter
Put Shuppet onto bench.
Put Smoochum onto bench.
Smoochum has used Baby Evolution
Smoochum evolved into Jynx
Attached a Rainbow Energy (RS 95) to Shuppet
DEBUG: Shuppet’s Current_Energy_Cards: [Rainbow Energy (RS 95)]
Shuppet got 10 damage
JamesG is now a spectator of the game
Holon Mentor (DS 93) was discarded
Between turns
Turn 3 begins
UCS drew 1 card
UCS played Holon Transceiver.
JamesG has exited spectation.
UCS has shuffled deck.
Put [Holon Mentor (DS 93)] to Hand
UCS has shuffled deck.
Little_River is now a spectator of the game
UCS played Holon Mentor.
Treecko (CG 68) was discarded
Little_River has exited spectation.
UCS has shuffled deck.
Put [Trapinch (HP 84), Exeggcute (HP 65), Trapinch (HP 84)] to Hand
UCS has shuffled deck.
Put [Holon Mentor (DS 93)] to Supporter
Put Trapinch onto bench.
Put Exeggcute onto bench.
Put Trapinch onto bench.
Attached a Warp Energy (UF 100) to Mew
DEBUG: Mew’s Current_Energy_Cards: [Warp Energy (UF 100)]
Holon Mentor (DS 93) was discarded
Between turns
Turn 4 begins
froggiep0p drew 1 card
Attached a Warp Energy (PK 91) to Holon’s Voltorb
DEBUG: Holon’s Voltorb’s Current_Energy_Cards: [Warp Energy (PK 91)]
[UCS]: no mag
Shuppet is now active
froggiep0p played Rocket’s Admin.
Put 3 cards to Deck
Put 3 cards to Deck
froggiep0p has shuffled deck.
UCS has shuffled deck.
Iquomie is now a spectator of the game
froggiep0p drew 6 cards
UCS drew 6 cards
Put [Rocket’s Admin (TRR 86)] to Supporter
froggiep0p played Holon Transceiver.
froggiep0p has shuffled deck.
Put [Holon Adventurer (HP 85)] to Hand
froggiep0p has shuffled deck.
Shuppet used Ascension
froggiep0p has shuffled deck.
Shuppet evolved into Banette ex
Rocket’s Admin (TRR 86) was discarded
Between turns
Turn 5 begins
UCS drew 1 card
Attached a δ Rainbow Energy (HP 98) to Holon’s Castform
DEBUG: Holon’s Castform’s Current_Energy_Cards: [δ Rainbow Energy (HP 98)]
UCS played Steven’s Advice.
UCS drew 3 cards
Put [Steven’s Advice (HL 92)] to Supporter
Holon’s Castform used Delta Draw
UCS drew 4 cards
Steven’s Advice (HL 92) was discarded
Between turns
Turn 6 begins
froggiep0p drew 1 card
Banette ex has used Shady Move
Holon’s Castform got 10 damage
Moved 1 damage counter from Banette ex to Holon’s Castform
froggiep0p played Holon Adventurer.
Rocket’s Admin (TRR 86) was discarded
froggiep0p drew 3 cards
Put [Holon Adventurer (HP 85)] to Supporter
Put Lunatone onto bench.
Attached a Warp Energy (PK 91) to Banette ex
DEBUG: Banette ex’s Current_Energy_Cards: [Warp Energy (PK 91), Rainbow Energy (RS 95)]
Lunatone is now active
Lunatone retreated.
Banette ex is now active
Banette ex used Shadow Chant
Banette ex did 70 damage to Holon’s Castform
Holon’s Castform was knocked out
froggiep0p took one prize card.
Mew is now active
Holon Adventurer (HP 85) was discarded
Between turns
Turn 7 begins
UCS drew 1 card
Trapinch evolved into Vibrava
Attached a δ Rainbow Energy (HP 98) to Mew
DEBUG: Mew’s Current_Energy_Cards: [δ Rainbow Energy (HP 98), Warp Energy (UF 100)]
Put Trapinch onto bench.
UCS played Rocket’s Admin.
Put 9 cards to Deck
Put 7 cards to Deck
UCS has shuffled deck.
froggiep0p has shuffled deck.
UCS drew 6 cards
froggiep0p drew 5 cards
Put [Rocket’s Admin (TRR 86)] to Supporter
Mew used Copy
Mew used Shadow Chant
Mew did 50 damage to Banette ex
Rocket’s Admin (TRR 86) was discarded
Between turns
Turn 8 begins
froggiep0p drew 1 card
froggiep0p played Holon Mentor.
Holon Scientist (DS 97) was discarded
froggiep0p has shuffled deck.
Put [Shuppet (CG 40), Shuppet (CG 40)] to Hand
froggiep0p has shuffled deck.
Put [Holon Mentor (DS 93)] to Supporter
Put Shuppet onto bench.
Put Shuppet onto bench.
Attached a Rainbow Energy (RS 95) to Shuppet
DEBUG: Shuppet’s Current_Energy_Cards: [Rainbow Energy (RS 95)]
Shuppet got 10 damage
Banette ex has used Shady Move
Mew got 10 damage
Moved 1 damage counter from Banette ex to Mew
Banette ex used Shadow Chant
Mew is weak to PSYCHIC
Banette ex did 180 damage to Mew
Mew was knocked out
froggiep0p took one prize card.
Vibrava is now active
Holon Mentor (DS 93) was discarded
Between turns
Turn 9 begins
UCS drew 1 card
Vibrava evolved into Flygon ex
UCS played Holon Transceiver.
UCS has shuffled deck.
Put [Holon Farmer (DS 91)] to Hand
UCS has shuffled deck.
Between turns
Sand Damage activates
Holon’s Voltorb got 10 damage
Lunatone got 10 damage
Shuppet got 10 damage
Shuppet got 10 damage
Turn 10 begins
froggiep0p drew 1 card
TheAquaPiplup is now a spectator of the game
froggiep0p played Holon Adventurer.
Pokémon Reversal (RS 87) was discarded
froggiep0p drew 3 cards
Put [Holon Adventurer (HP 85)] to Supporter
Banette ex has used Shady Move
Trapinch got 10 damage
Moved 1 damage counter from Banette ex to Trapinch
Banette ex used Shadow Chant
Banette ex did 90 damage to Flygon ex
Holon Adventurer (HP 85) was discarded
Between turns
Sand Damage activates
Holon’s Voltorb got 10 damage
Lunatone got 10 damage
Shuppet got 10 damage
Shuppet got 10 damage
Turn 11 begins
UCS drew 1 card
UCS played Holon Transceiver.
UCS has shuffled deck.
Put [Holon Researcher (DS 95)] to Hand
UCS has shuffled deck.
UCS played Holon Researcher.
Sceptile ex (CG 96) was discarded
UCS has shuffled deck.
Put [Vibrava (DF 42)] to Hand
UCS has shuffled deck.
Put [Holon Researcher (DS 95)] to Supporter
Trapinch evolved into Vibrava
Holon Researcher (DS 95) was discarded
Between turns
Sand Damage activates
Holon’s Voltorb got 10 damage
Lunatone got 10 damage
Shuppet got 10 damage
Shuppet was knocked out
UCS took one prize card.
Shuppet got 10 damage
Turn 12 begins
froggiep0p drew 1 card
Banette ex has used Shady Move
Trapinch got 10 damage
Moved 1 damage counter from Shuppet to Trapinch
Attached a Warp Energy (PK 91) to Shuppet
DEBUG: Shuppet’s Current_Energy_Cards: [Warp Energy (PK 91)]
froggiep0p played Pokémon Reversal.
Coin flip [Pokémon Reversal]: TAILS
Banette ex used Shadow Chant
Banette ex did 90 damage to Flygon ex
Flygon ex was knocked out
froggiep0p took one prize card.
froggiep0p took one prize card.
Vibrava is now active
Between turns
Turn 13 begins
UCS drew 1 card
Vibrava evolved into Flygon
Put Holon’s Castform onto bench.
UCS played Holon Scientist.
Fearow (CG 18) was discarded
UCS drew 4 cards
Put [Holon Scientist (DS 97)] to Supporter
UCS played Rare Candy.
Trapinch evolved into Flygon ex
Attached a Cyclone Energy (UF 99) to Flygon
DEBUG: Flygon’s Current_Energy_Cards: [Cyclone Energy (UF 99)]
Lunatone is now active
Holon Scientist (DS 97) was discarded
Between turns
Turn 14 begins
froggiep0p drew 1 card
Put Shuppet onto bench.
Attached a Rainbow Energy (RS 95) to Shuppet
DEBUG: Shuppet’s Current_Energy_Cards: [Rainbow Energy (RS 95), Warp Energy (PK 91)]
Shuppet got 10 damage
Lunatone retreated.
Banette ex is now active
Banette ex has used Shady Move
Flygon got 10 damage
Moved 1 damage counter from Shuppet to Flygon
Banette ex used Shadow Chant
Banette ex did 90 damage to Flygon
Between turns
Turn 15 begins
UCS drew 1 card
UCS played Holon Mentor.
Windstorm (CG 85) was discarded
UCS has shuffled deck.
Put [Chimecho (HP 37), Trapinch (HP 84), Holon’s Castform (HP 44)] to Hand
UCS has shuffled deck.
Put [Holon Mentor (DS 93)] to Supporter
Put Chimecho onto bench.
Put Trapinch onto bench.
Chimecho has used Delta Support
Put [δ Rainbow Energy (HP 98)] to Hand
Flygon has used Delta Supply
Attached a δ Rainbow Energy (HP 98) to Flygon ex
DEBUG: Flygon ex’s Current_Energy_Cards: [δ Rainbow Energy (HP 98)]
Attached a Holon’s Castform (HP 44) to Flygon ex
DEBUG: Flygon ex’s Current_Energy_Cards: [Holon’s Castform (HP 44), δ Rainbow Energy (HP 98)]
Put [δ Rainbow Energy (HP 98)] to Hand
Holon’s Castform (HP 44) is now a Special Energy Card
Holon Mentor (DS 93) was discarded
Between turns
Turn 16 begins
froggiep0p drew 1 card
Attached a Rainbow Energy (RS 95) to Shuppet
DEBUG: Shuppet’s Current_Energy_Cards: [Rainbow Energy (RS 95)]
Shuppet got 10 damage
Banette ex has used Shady Move
Flygon ex got 10 damage
Moved 1 damage counter from Banette ex to Flygon ex
Banette ex used Shadow Chant
Banette ex did 90 damage to Flygon
Flygon was knocked out
froggiep0p took one prize card.
Flygon ex is now active
Between turns
Sand Damage activates
Holon’s Voltorb got 10 damage
Holon’s Voltorb was knocked out
UCS took one prize card.
Lunatone got 10 damage
Shuppet got 10 damage
Shuppet got 10 damage
Turn 17 begins
UCS drew 1 card
Attached a δ Rainbow Energy (HP 98) to Flygon ex
DEBUG: Flygon ex’s Current_Energy_Cards: [δ Rainbow Energy (HP 98), Holon’s Castform (HP 44)]
UCS played Holon Farmer.
[P] Energy was discarded
Put [[P] Energy] to Deck
Put [Flygon ex (DF 92), Vibrava (DF 42), Flygon (HP 7)] to Deck
UCS has shuffled deck.
Put [Holon Farmer (DS 91)] to Supporter
Flygon ex used Psychic Pulse
Flygon ex did 80 damage to Banette ex
Flygon ex did 10 damage to Lunatone
Flygon ex did 10 damage to Shuppet
Flygon ex did 10 damage to Shuppet
Shuppet was knocked out
UCS took one prize card.
Banette ex was knocked out
UCS took one prize card.
UCS took one prize card.
Shuppet is now active
Holon Farmer (DS 91) was discarded
Between turns
Sand Damage activates
Lunatone got 10 damage
Lunatone was knocked out
UCS took one prize card.
UCS wins the game! All prizes taken
Turn 18 begins
Game has ended
[froggiep0p]: GG
[UCS]: gg
[froggiep0p]: MAN…
[UCS]: UCS has exited game.
[froggiep0p]: froggiep0p has exited game.
TheAquaPiplup has exited spectation.
Iquomie has exited spectation.

[JasonKlaczynski]

These type of rulings have changed over the course of different eras. The XY ruling you cite here does not apply to the EX era; Jynx is considered an evolved Pokémon in this situation for purposes of Sand Damage.

[tfw]

first off, I want to apologize for citing an XY ruling. my understanding of this specific rule was that it had uncontestedly existed for the game’s entire post-WOTC history, and ADV card text aligned with that understanding, so I just opted to link the furthest back relevant ruling I could find for the sake of a quick bug report. I had no idea this case would end up being as intricate as it was

that being said, we seemed to come to the conclusion on discord that it is correct for Sand Damage to place a damage counter on a benched Jynx that has evolved from Smoochum via Baby Evolution, and that it would also be correct for Space Center to shut off this same Jynx’s Poke-Body

to summarize the discord discussion:

• A Basic Pokemon (たねポケモン) is a Pokemon that has “Basic” written as its stage on the left side of the card. Cards like Great Ball, Flygon-ex DF 92, Space Center, and Raticate RG 48 check for this state. It is important to note that “Basic Pokemon” solely refers to the stage written on the Pokemon’s card, and is not to be confused with an Unevolved Pokemon. This stage is not mutually exclusive with the state of being an Evolved Pokemon.
• An Evolution Pokemon (進化カード) is a Pokemon that has “Stage 1” or “Stage 2” written as its stage on the left side of the card. Cards like Kingdra-ex DF 94, Professor Elm’s Training Method, and Dark Dragonair TR 31 check for this state. It is possible to have an Evolution Pokemon in play that is not considered an Evolved Pokemon (in ADV the wording is “treat the new Benched Pokemon as Basic Pokemon”).
• A Baby Pokemon (ベイビィポケモン) is a Pokemon with the Baby Rule that has “Baby” written in as its stage on the left side of the card. It is very important to note that there are no Baby Pokemon in ADV, and babies printed in ADV like Smoochum DF 64 and Azurill SS 31 are considered normal Basic Pokemon. However, ADV cards like Lanette’s Net Search, Salamence-ex DX 103, and Dodrio RG 21 check for this state. Again, Baby Pokemon were not printed in any ADV set.
• An Evolved Pokemon (進化ポケモン) is a Pokemon that has been manually placed on top of another Pokemon to evolve it. Cards like Scramble Energy, Solid Rage, Latias HP 11, and Boost Energy check for this state, so it is possible for Scramble Energy to be attached to an evolved Basic Jynx.
• An Unevolved Pokemon (進化していないポケモン) is a Pokemon in play that does not have a Pokemon underneath it that it evolved from. This state is only called for in ADV by Scramble Energy and Boost Energy for sake of devolution interactions with cards like Ancient Technical Machine [Rock] or Espeon-ex UF 102. Future cards like Snowpoint Temple, Mewtwo LV.X, and Regice LA 36 check for this state.

with all of this in mind, we knew definitively these categories were true and correct from as far back as DP onwards, and the point of contention here was whether or not these categories were invariably applicable for ADV. there are only a couple Japanese rulings we have that support this case:

(courtesy of JP. Source: ƒ|ƒPƒ‚ƒ“ƒJ[ƒhƒQ[ƒ€‚`‚c‚u‘æ‚Q’eŠg’£ƒpƒbƒNu»”™‚Ì‚«‚¹‚«v@‚p•‚`)

ピチュー ポケパワー［ベイビィしんか］
Q ピチューのポケパワー［ベイビィしんか］を使って進化したピカチュウは、「進化ポケモン」としてあつかうのですか。
A はい、進化ポケモンとしてあつかいます。

DeepL:

Pichu POKEPOWER [Baby Shinka]
Q: Is a Pikachu that evolved using Pichu’s POKEPOWER [Baby Shinka] treated as an “Evolved Pokémon”?
A: Yes, it is treated as an Evolved Pokémon.

this confirms the existence of the Evolved state as we understand it. however, this doesn’t contradict anything we know and doesn’t confirm whether or not the Pikachu in question is considered a Basic Pokemon or an Evolution Pokemon, just that it is an Evolved Pokemon, (DP onwards we know that it would be considered both Evolved and Basic.) and whether or not the Basic stage is mutually exclusive with the Evolved state. we need to look a little further for that:

(courtesy of flagrama. Source: ベイビィしんか - ポケモンWiki)

異なり、ベイビィ進化後のポケモンはカードに書かれているとおり「たねポケモ ン」として扱われる。ただし、「進化していないポケモン」ではなく「進化ポケモン」である。

DeepL:

Unlike the other Pokémon, a Baby Evolved Pokémon is treated as a “Seed Pokémon,” as written on the card. However, it is an “Evolved Pokémon,” not an “Unevolved Pokémon”.

this outright confirms our argument is correct… however, although ポケモンWiki provides accurate information, it is not technically delivered from an official source. it is probably the best contradiction to how TCGONE rules it as we have access to.

as it turns out, there was another bug report and a consecutive discussion about this specific topic posted by TyraniBoah on the TCGONE forums in march and april of 2021.

Link to bug report: Space Center vs Evolved Pokemon - #2 by nhnsn
Link to discussion: Space Center & the Definition of Basic - #6 by NankerPhelge

TyraniBoah makes very good points in these threads, and his logic is consistent with what we understand and can reasonably infer from both the ADV text and the limited amount of ADV rulings and official rulings from DP onwards that confirm our arguments. I recommend you read them both

I particularly want to emphasize these few points:

“But nowhere on their cards does it if they are Stage 1’s, or Stage 2’s. Nowhere in the game does ‘being evolved’ override a card’s text, which says if they are Basic, Stage 1, or Stage 2.”

“Being an ‘Evolution Card’ does not automatically make a Pokemon ‘non-Basic’ as seen by Archie, Strange Cave, etc, which by card effect turn Evolution Cards into Basics. Their text has been overridden explicitly, by card effect. The absence of a card underneath them is not what makes them Basic, but the effect stating that they are.”

“A Pokemon is only a Basic, Stage 1, or Stage 2 if it says so on the card, or by card effect. This is seen in multiple Compendium rulings on Team Assembly, Influence and Strange Cave. Rare Candy also demonstrates this by affirming that Stage 2’s placed on top of Basics are still Stage 2’s. Just because they have a Basic underneath them doesn’t make them Stage 1’s. Just because an ‘Evolved Basic’ like Jynx has Smoochum underneath doesn’t mean its ‘Basic’ card text has been overwritten. It’s not a Stage 1, not a Stage 2, not some other category. It’s still a Basic Pokemon.”

“Space Center refers to Basic Pokemon, not ‘non-evolved’ Pokemon, which means it applies to Pokemon that either have ‘Basic’ in their text, or have been modified into a Basic by card effect (like Archie). Basics can be ‘Evolved’, but still be ‘Basic’ if nothing has modified their card text. Wobbuffet, Electabuzz, Clefairy and Magmar with their respective Baby’s underneath them, are still Basic Pokemon and subject to any card effects that refer to ‘Basic’ Pokemon.”

“The current interpretation of Baby Evolutions, that they are immune to references to ‘Basic’ Pokemon, is impulsive and contradictory. It is more accurate if they receive all the benefits of being ‘Evolved’ (Scramble, Boost, etc.) while retaining all the drawbacks of being ‘Basic’, not ‘Non-Evolved’ (Aggron ex Intimidating Armor, Shining Horn, Space Center, etc.).”

“If that is the case, though, that they are able to evade references to ‘Basic’, then the texts of numerous cards have to be modified to contain a new term never seen in any card prior: “Non-Evolved Basic Pokemon.” At the same time, it also means Baby Evolutions create a fourth type of Pokemon that also isn’t found anywhere: Evolved Non-Basic, Non-Stage 1, Non-Stage 2 Pokemon.”

Jason has a counterpoint here:

“Your logic makes perfect sense. Unfortunately, Pokémon cards sometimes don’t. Often in this game we have to determine what the intention of a card is rather than go by the literal text. In this instance, I’m assuming we’ve always had it right that Space Center should not disable Poké-Bodies of an evolved Wobbuffet, Jynx, etc.”

however, I disagree with this line of thinking.
TyraniBoah mentions:

“I think it is incredible to assume that Baby Evolutions are creating a fourth category of Pokemon that is otherwise not referenced anywhere in the game (Evolved Non-Basic, Non-Stage 1, Non-Stage 2 Pokemon).”

I agree with this. in this case, your argument needs to be backed by a ruling that supports your claim, because this outright contradicts the text of the cards and has crazy implications as far as creating a new special fourth category of Pokemon that is neither a Basic, a Stage 1, or a Stage 2.

theres one last snag, and it’s something Jason brings up regarding how Space Center was played in 2006:

“If it worked as you describe, Space Center would also shut off an evolved Wobbuffet. Space Center would have seen way more play in 2006.”

“Even though TPCi still got a few rulings wrong around this time, Wobbuffet and Jynx were both popular enough cards where I feel like we’d have heard from Japan if we had been doing it wrong.”

the simplest explanation I have for this is that it was simply too niche of a system that mattered in far too few interactions and not well understood enough for people to have ever picked up on. we know the distinction exists now and understand it exists because of clarification that happened in the years following this, likely due to the relevancy of this system in interactions with LV.X Pokemon, and that is simply 18~ years of additional context that a player from 2006 couldn’t possibly realize. I disagree with having the way it was played in 2006 be the official way that it is implemented on TCGONE, as I believe that preserving the aspects of historical accuracy of formats shouldn’t get in the way of using what we can reasonably infer to be correct rulings.

in any case, I believe that the burden of proof here lies with the side that believes that a Jynx evolved from Smoochum via Baby Evolution should not take Sand Damage or should not be affected by Space Center; until there is concrete proof that they shouldn’t, according to all arguments, rulings provided, and how this documented system has worked for the history of the game, it makes sense that on TCGONE it should be implemented so that they take Sand Damage and be affected by Space Center.

[dxdydzd]

I found two rulings in the Compendium that would indicate that Baby Evo’d mons are no longer considered Basic.

Q. Suppose I have an Elekid from Sandstorm in play, and my opponent has a Team Magma Hideout in play. If I evolve Elekid using its “Baby Evolution” power to Electabuzz, does that trigger Team Magma Hideout’s effect?
A. No, it does not. In this situation Electabuzz is considered an evolved Pokémon, so Team Magma’s Hideout does not apply. (Jun 3, 2004 PUI Rules Team)

Q. Say I use my Pichu’s “Baby Evolution” power to evolve Pichu into Pikachu, which is now an “evolved Basic Pokémon”. Can I then play Rare Candy on my Pikachu to evolve it into Raichu or Raichu-EX during the same turn?
A. Since Pikachu would be considered an “Evolved Pokémon” at that point, Rare Candy cannot be used on that Pikachu. Rare Candy can only be used on “non-Evolved” Pokémon. (Apr 14, 2005 PUI Rules Team)

The Rare Candy ruling is about as close as you’re going to get to “when a card refers to a “Basic Pokémon” in play, it actually means “non-evolved” Pokémon”. (As far as EX Block is concerned, at least. DP would be different.)

Also, if Baby Evo’d Basics were still considered Basics, Solid Rage could be attached to them, but would also immediately be discarded, since it says “If the Pokémon Solid Rage is attached to is a Basic Pokémon […], discard Solid Rage.” (Not saying it’s not possible that that’s how it’s actually supposed to work, but it seems far more likely that “Basic Pokémon” should mean “non-Evolved Pokémon” instead. The first sentence tells you what set of Pokémon it can be attached to, so the second sentence that tells you what it can’t be attached to should be a complement of the first set.)

“If that is the case, though, that they are able to evade references to ‘Basic’, then the texts of numerous cards have to be modified to contain a new term never seen in any card prior: “Non-Evolved Basic Pokemon.” At the same time, it also means Baby Evolutions create a fourth type of Pokemon that also isn’t found anywhere: Evolved Non-Basic, Non-Stage 1, Non-Stage 2 Pokemon.”

Japanese Rare Candy already did that between EX to DP.

EX Rare Candy
DP Rare Candy

To me it seems like Baby Evo’d Basics should not be affected by cards that refer to Basic Pokémon in play (again, with the caveat that this only applies for EX Block). The way I see it, it was the rule in Japan all along (consistent with what Japanese players had to say on this) and simply had the misfortune of never making it to English-speaking regions, or being recorded for posterity in an official publication, causing people to argue over it on the Internet almost two decades later.

[tfw]

before i say anything i want to make it clear that im not interested in starting another week long argument and im fine with the current implementation if everyone else is fine with it, even if i still personally disagree with it

i also want to make it clear that i completely understood and agreed with the two rulings you posted when i made my previous post and completely understand and agree with them now, i believe that they are not contradictory

my point was that i believed the system of evolution status vs stage that we know to be invariably true and correct from DP onwards should also apply to EX

the evolution status of a pokemon being either “evolved” & “non-evolved” which are seperate, non-mutually exclusive states from the specific stage of a pokemon, being any of “basic”, “stage 1”, or “stage 2”. so a pikachu evolved from pichu would be “evolved” & “basic” at the same time. also, since diving into this topic, i found out that this system is at least technicallyyyy supported in EX via a PUI ruling

lightly confirms the existence of evolution status and stage as seperate concepts, “evolved” and also “stage 2”

here’s the DP ruling, i know for the most part that we shouldn’t base EX rulings off of DP but im just posting this for clarity’s sake

Q: After using Igglybuff’s Poké Power “Baby Evolution” to evolve into Jigglypuff, can I use the item “Mysterious Candy” to evolve into Wigglytuff?
A: Yes, you can.
If it is a Pokémon labeled as a basic Pokémon, you can evolve it using the item “Mysterious Candy.”

we also know that a card’s stage is not overwritten unless its explicitly stated to be overwritten via the effect of another card (such as a card put into play with strange cave) so it doesn’t make sense to me that this pikachu would just lose its printed stage if its evolved, without any instruction given to remove that stage like we see on strange cave

if it does lose its stage and becomes something that isn’t a basic, then its not a basic, stage 1, or stage 2. this is the part i have an issue with, because it feels like an absurd interpretation of the mechanic if we have to say that pokemon evolved from baby evolution create a new fourth unnamed stage of pokemon that is not a basic, stage 1, or stage 2, and is not outlined in any rulebook or document

one last thing regarding DP candy that you brought up, “進化していないポケモン” is an evolution status check, not a new stage, the same text exists on mewtwo lvl.x and snowpoint temple

[dxdydzd]

my point was that i believed the system of evolution status vs stage that we know to be invariably true and correct from DP onwards should also apply to EX

Well, this is where we disagree. I believe EX has its own rules for classifying Baby Evos, different from DP onwards, and expressed that twice in my post.

Q: After using Igglybuff’s Poké Power “Baby Evolution” to evolve into Jigglypuff, can I use the item “Mysterious Candy” to evolve into Wigglytuff?
A: Yes, you can.
If it is a Pokémon labeled as a basic Pokémon, you can evolve it using the item “Mysterious Candy.”

To call this the “DP ruling” would be inaccurate. The Japanese PTCG rulings site overwrites old rulings without preserving them if a meta-rule or functionality of a card has changed. The ruling shown here is only applicable if you were to, for some reason, play DP Block (which had Baby Evos) with modern Rare Candy wording (which states “Basic Pokémon” instead of “unevolved Pokémon”「進化していないポケモン」, as I mentioned previously).

If you need further convincing, this is what the Japanese rulings website has to say about T1 Rare Candy:

Q: During the second player’s first turn, can they use a Rare Candy to evolve their Pokémon?
A: No you can’t.

Are we going to play DP Block with T1 Rare Candy disallowed for both players? Likely not.

we also know that a card’s stage is not overwritten unless its explicitly stated to be overwritten via the effect of another card (such as a card put into play with strange cave) so it doesn’t make sense to me that this pikachu would just lose its printed stage if its evolved, without any instruction given to remove that stage like we see on strange cave

I believe this is one of the rules that was not written on the cards, but understood by Japanese players, and tragically did not make the transition to English-speaking regions before fading into memory. Some other examples of this sort of rule are Metronoming Ember with no Fire Energy attached, and whether Drag Off or Whirlwind can cause a switch if either the Defending or Benched Pokémon has an effect guard. Hell, I was initially lead to the wrong conclusions when researching those rules (no thanks to incorrect Compendium rulings) and it took seeing Japanese publications posted by Coconut LaCroix to finally convince me. Sadly, it seems like there is no publication clarifying the Basic status of Baby Evo’d mons as it applied in EX, so unfortunately we will not have a consensus on how it should work.

(While I’ve learned not to trust the Compendium blindly, in this case, for Baby Evo’d mons using the Rare Candy example, I actually do believe it’s correct. Why? Because it’s consistent with what the Japanese players are saying.)

if it does lose its stage and becomes something that isn’t a basic, then its not a basic, stage 1, or stage 2. this is the part i have an issue with, because it feels like an absurd interpretation of the mechanic if we have to say that pokemon evolved from baby evolution create a new fourth unnamed stage of pokemon that is not a basic, stage 1, or stage 2, and is not outlined in any rulebook or document

This one is easier to accept for me. A Baby Evo’d mon may be none of Basic, Stage 1, or Stage 2, but then again there is nothing saying that it has to be at least one of the three.

In Magic: the Gathering, there is a creature card without a type (Nameless Race), which seems absurd, but ends up working within the game’s rules. If a card tells you to “sacrifice a Goblin”, can you sacrifice Nameless Race? No, because it isn’t a Goblin. If a card tells you to “destroy target non-Vampire, non-Werewolf, non-Zombie creature”, can you destroy Nameless Race? Yes, because it checks all the boxes: it is not a Vampire, not a Werewolf, and not a Zombie.

Back to Pokémon, sure, an Evolved Pokémon of indeterminate Stage seems absurd. But does it function within the game’s rules? Yes, it does. If a card looks for Stage 1 Evolved (e.g. Wailord LM) or Stage 2 Evolved (e.g. Mary’s Request) Pokémon, will this Evolved Pokémon of indeterminate Stage count? No. If a card looks for Basic Pokémon in play (e.g. Space Center), will it count? No. If a card looks for Evolved Pokémon in play (e.g. Shedinja DR), will it count? Yes.

In fact you could ask all these questions of a Mega Evolution, VMAX, or VSTAR Pokémon, and come up the same answers. So there aren’t any “crazy implications” with the concept of an Evolved Pokémon that is not Basic, not Stage 1, and not Stage 2; cards like that have already been printed and played without causing irreconcilable ruling issues.

[tfw]

it’s not that i believe we should cut out a DP rule and retroactively apply it to EX, it’s that the text and mechanics of baby evolution remain exactly the same between generations, and because if you interpret the text and surrounding mechanics of cards literally and as they exist in EX you’ll independently come out with the same conclusion that the DP rules clarify (e.g. the stage printed on a pokemon is absolute unless explicitly overwritten, that pikachu will still evolve into the stage 1 raichu, that a pokemon can be both evolved and basic) which makes the most sense to me in the absence of any definitive answer

and my point with the DP ruling was outlining that a jigglypuff evolved from an igglybuff was in fact an “evolved basic” by the time of DP, nothing more, the reason i posted it didn’t have anything to do with the mechanics of rare candy, sorry for that. here is a different rule from the same period of time that gets the same point across

Q: If the Celebi that used the move “Time Circle” on my turn is attacked by my opponent’s Pikachu that evolved from Pichu due to the Pokémon Power “Baby Evolution,” will it take damage from the Pikachu’s move on the opponent’s next turn?
A: Yes, it will take damage. Even if it evolves from Pichu due to the Pokémon Power “Baby Evolution,” Pikachu is considered a “Basic Pokémon,” so the effect of Celebi’s move “Time Circle” does not apply, and Celebi will take damage from the move.

i know that a “stageless” pokemon wouldn’t necessarily cause any issues in gameplay in relation to other cards, it’s the idea that we have to create one at all outside of the written rules in order for the mechanic to remain logically consistent with the current implementation that i have an issue with. since there’s no definite rule going either way on this issue, why do we have to take the road of creating an entirely new stage of pokemon? what’s there to also stop someone from claiming that this pikachu is a stage 1 instead of stageless? and in that case, how do we know exactly that the only criteria for being a stage 1 isn’t just being a pokemon with a basic pokemon under it that it has manually evolved from?

mega evolution, VMAX, and VSTAR are all stages that we know exist because they’re printed on cards as a given stage and are referred to within card text. if you flip open an XY rulebook it’ll tell you that mega evolutions are a stage and it’ll tell you what makes them different from the normal stages of pokemon, it’s not an unofficial new classification outside of the printed rules that the playerbase had to create

one last thing that i glossed over and intended to bring up, the second PUI ruling in your original post did mention verbatim that pikachu was an “evolved basic”

[dxdydzd]

So, it turns out we could have saved a lot of time and agony if we’d remembered how the Compendium worked. Players would pose their questions to the Rules Team, and the Rules Team would answer, clarifying with PUI’s R&D team if necessary. These Q&As would then be added to the Compendium (if, I guess, they were noteworthy enough).

Amazingly, these Q&As are still online — they’re found in the “Ask the Rules Team” forum of Pokegym. Virtually all of the questions that have been floated here or in the Space Center thread have been answered there.

Is a Baby Evo’d mon a Stage 1? No.
Are Baby Evo’d mons affected by Space Center? No. (Also, PokePop slips here and uses the phrase “evolved Basic”.)
Are Baby Evo’d mons affected by Aggron ex CG’s Intimidating Armor? No.
Is a Wigglytuff that evolved from Jigglypuff that evolved from Igglybuff Stage 1 or 2? Stage 1. (PokePop slips again.)
Is a Baby Evo’d mon Basic or Stage 1? Neither.
Does Sand Damage affect Baby Evo’d mons? No.
How exactly is a Baby Evo’d mon classified? Evolved, but not Basic, not Stage 1, not Stage 2.

So, there you go. All of this is consistent with how the Japanese players remembered it.