[BR] Brock's Ninetales + Kingdra Neo Revelation

Brock’s Ninetales allows kingdra neo revelation to use the attacks of all cards attached to Ninetales with its pokepower (even if they are not kingdra pre-evolutions), so kingdra can make 100 or 120 damage with 1 energy, with cards like baseset charizard, ltsurges raichu, blaines arcanine, etc. This is a bug because kingdra’s genetic memory attack only works with kingdra pre-evolutions. I report this because I have seen several users taking advantage of this.

I raised that issue on the TCG ONE Discord channel, although I understand the logic of what you are saying (and it might be even the correct approach), don’t think it is so simple. I will try to explain.

The text “Use any attack from Kingdra’s Basic Pokemon card and Evolution card” can be interpreted as any Basic Pokemon card and Evolution attached to the attacking Pokemon i.e. Kingdra. Note that the text could have referred them by name i.e. “Horsea and Seadra” (like a lot of other cards, such as TR Magikarp); or could have said “any Pokemon card which Kingdra evolves from” (a-la Neo Discovery Fossil egg), or even “Kingdra’s previous-stage” (a-la Pokemon Breeder Fields).

A similar issue can be found in Neo Revelation Aerodactyl’s pokemon power, which specifies “it can use any attack from its Basic Pokemon card or any Evolution card attached to it”.

Another text issue I thought about, regarding the above, is with using BS Electrode’s Electric Shock attack. When you are using Buzzap Pokemon power to attach it to Brock’s Ninetails (or any Pokemon when Aero’s Pokemon Power is activated), Electrode is considered as “Energy card” no longer considered as “Pokemon”, as it its Pokemon Power says: “Electrode it now an Energy card (instead of a Pokemon)”.
Is that mean it is no longer considered “Evolution card” (Stage 1) too?
Both Kingdra and Aerodactyl text requires "Evolution card" and not “Evolution Pokemon card” or “evolved Pokemon”.In other words, would you be able to access BS Electrode’s Electric Shock attack, using Kingdra’s Genetic Memory attack (evolved normally or played on top of Brock’s Ninetails) or when attached to any Pokemon while Aerodactyl’s Pokemon Power is activated?

I will mention that I don’t know if there are already an official (or community) rulings on those issues. I just felt those argument need to be raised.

Q. What happens if you slap Kingdra on a Brock’s Ninetales and try to use Genetic Memory?
A. Nothing. If you attach Kingdra on a Brock’s Ninetales it is only treated as that Pokemon. Genetic Memory ONLY lets you use attacks from Kingdra’s basic or evolution cards and there aren’t any of these in this example. (Oct 18, 2001 WotC Chat, Q17; Sep 19, 2002 WotC Chat, Q471)

The ruling is pretty clear-cut. This isn’t supposed to be possible.

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If so, then maybe the devs would want to check out the other interactions I mentioned, as they probably shouldn’t be allowed as well (even though I don’t know if they are bugged too).

[Deleted due to not reading the card properly]

Genetic Memory is not a Pokemon Power. It is an attack.

Yup, my bad sorry! But yeah, this def needs to be checked and hopefully fixed, tho it may take some time as it is related to legacy code (which can’t be modified/fixed by all devs as of right now). Hopefully it can be worked out soon :slight_smile:

its Basic Pokémon card

Seems to refer to “The Basic Pokémon that evolves into this Pokémon” so any interactions which use that text but do not work this way will probably need to be looked at.

As for Electrode, it becomes an Energy card, it is no longer a Pokémon card in any sense since it is in play as an Energy card. It won’t be a Pokémon again until it is removed from the Pokémon it is attached to by using effects that affect Energy cards (discard/return to hand/discarded on knockout of the Pokémon it is attached to)

Just for clarification, if you stack Neo Rev Kingdra on top of another Kingdra, is that considerd “Kingdra’s basic or evolution cards”? If the answer is yes, then you can access the bottom Kingdra’s attacks using the top Kingdra’s Genetic Memory attack.

I’m pretty sure only the top attached card has any meaning. Once we have the ability to fix this, we will verify with as many people with experience with rulings on this attack as we can to ensure it is implemented correctly, but I’m 99% sure that Kingdra should not be able to see any of the other cards attached to Ninetales.

To be clear, this is because the Kingdra’s attack does not say “attached” cards. Attached cards and previous Pokémon cards in an evolution chain seem to be treated differently. Since Kingdra does not say

Use any attack from Kingdra’s [attached] Basic Pokémon card or Evolution card.

It is unable to see any of the attached cards, only the cards it evolved from, i.e. None here.

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I was reading this and was confused by the wording of “stacking a Kingdra on a Kingdra.” Just to clarify, Brock’s Ninetales can only have one Shapeshifted Pokémon on it at a time. There were a few bizarre and awful rulings from Wizards related to Brock’s Ninetales back in the day, but remember to use common sense with these old cards.

Now, if Brock’s Ninetales had Shapeshifted into Kingdra, could Genetic Memory copy Will-o-the-Wisp or Brock’s Vulpix’s Hypnotic Gaze? This is where you have to read the intention of the card, which would seem to indicate its Basic and Stage 1 forms. I think Wizards got that part right when they said Genetic Memory would do nothing in this instance.

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Would be nice to have that added to WotC Erratas, Complete List for future reference I think. I checked there first, but didn’t see anything, so fell back to trying to understand the rulings on the WotC compendium page.

This isn’t really an errata, just a case where the wording could probably have been improved. If you read Brock’s Ninetales carefully, you’ll notice the line “Once during your turn, you may discard the evolution card attached to Brock’s Ninetales.”

The key word there is the, indicating there should only be one Evolution card attached to it.

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Could it be included anyways though, just to be clear enough? It’d probably be more fitting of its current place at Bizarre Rulings, alongside the floating steelix but this:

  • You CAN attach more than one evolution card to Brock’s Ninetales, but of course, ONLY once per turn. Brock’s Ninetales will then be treated as that latest evolution card so attached. If you decide to discard the latest evolution card attached, then Brock’s Ninetales will revert to being Brock’s Ninetales and NOT any previous still attached evolution cards. The Pokémon power states that you treat Brock’s Ninetales as the latest attached evolution card. It does NOT state anywhere that it would revert to any previous attached cards. So any previous attached cards would simply stay in play not affecting Brock’s Ninetales. The controller could discard those cards as the power states. Or if Brock’s Ninetales becomes Asleep, Confused, or Paralyzed then all of those evolution cards are discarded. If Brock’s Ninetales leaves play (scooped up) etc. then those attached cards also leave play as well. (Nov 16, 2000 WotC Chat Announcements)

Does suggest you can attach multiple evolutions, which based on your arguments is completely wrong. Might be worth including it over there :stuck_out_tongue:

Edit: Left this tab open and took another look at that chunk of text before closing. Head hurts.

WotC’s specific Genetic Memory ruling is derivied from their abovementioned general rule.

Hi! I’m new here and I’ve been playing for a couple of weeks. I’ve found this problem too - but my view is the following.

Considering the text reads as following:

“Treat Brock’s Ninetales as if it were that Pokémon instead.” and Kingdra’s (19/64) text reads as: “ Use any attack from Kingdra’s Basic Pokémon card or Evolution card. (Kingdra doesn’t have to pay for that attack’s Energy cost.)”

I think that Kingdra should be able to use Brock’s Vulpix abilities. The reason is:

  • Brock‘s Ninetales IS Neo’s Kindgra and not Brock’s Ninetales anymore → it shouldn’t be able to use will-o’-the- wisp.
  • It is considered as a “Kingdra evolving from a vulpix” - I know it sounds weird but this is how Brock’s Ninetales works.

In respect of Electrode’s Buzzap ability - it shouldn’t be able to use Electrode’s attacks because the text- clearly- explains that Electrode isn’t a pokemon anymore and is treated as an Energy Card.

On the other hand, I think that Brock’s Ninetales has the following conflict. The text reads as “Once during your turn (before your attack), you may attach an Evolution card from your hand to Brock’s Ninetales.” - and “ If Brock’s Ninetales becomes Asleep, Confused, or Paralyzed, discard all Evolution cards attached to it.”

→ The text doesn’t set a limit of Evolution cards attached to Brock’s Ninetales.

I think that this is the greatest problem. The most logical think would be to interpret that Brock’s Ninetales CAN’T BE TREATED as more than one different pokemon at once.
→ it is not logical that Kingdra uses an attack from another card attached to Brock’s Ninetales because it isn’t evolving from it.

The real bug is that the game enables Kingdra to use an attack of ANY card attached to Brock’s Ninetales - not that it uses an attack from a pre evolution stage of this card.

Maybe the best way to fix this is just limiting Kingdra to use an attack coming from
“Brock’s Vulpix”. That should fix the problem.

P.S: In relation to Neo’s Aerodactyl - it Pokemon Power should be limited only to pre evolution stages of the respective Pokemons → it shouldn’t be able to use will-o-the-whisp too.

One thing I can share with you from years of playing Pokémon is the literal text of a card cannot always be relied on to make rulings. You must first remember that all of these cards are written in Japanese and then translated to English, so even the slightest mistranslation can cause a misinterpretation. This applies to all Pokémon cards but especially the earliest eras, when wording was less optimal and also less resources were put into ensuring proper translation.

When it comes to these tricky rulings, all we can do is reach out to old official rulings from Japan (remember, Wizards was guessing so they often made bad rulings themselves) and get it clarified there. I’ll try to verify this one with original Japanese rules from the era.

Hi folks, thanks for all your input, I’ve just modified Brock’s Ninetales so that it will not allow multiple evolution cards at the same time anymore.

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